Class Closeup | How and When to Play a Ranger

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Like you picked the wrong dude, man.

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Hello and welcome to Nat One Presents the Podcast. Hey Nate, how's it going? Uh it's going. It's going tonight. It's going. That's how it's going. We got uh Chris over here again. I don't know if he knew that.

Oh hey Chris. Hey, good. See you on the you know three feet away from me. Yeah, it's because your blind is bad. I am. So at basic training, uh, you know, the drill sergeants always like find things to make fun of you. And I have you if you have you can't wear contacts in basic training, so you have to wear glasses, and my my prescription's so thick, they look like bottle caps, right? No. So the jail sergeant was like, damn, soldier, read me the uh what did he say? He said, read me the uh what's the the lottery numbers? And like, I don't know, I thought that was pretty funny. Like my prescription's so thick that I could read the [expletive] the the [expletive] to the future. I thought it was funny. That's funny.

I killed the joke, but because I can remember lottery numbers. But anyway, yeah, can't see, but uh good to have you back, Chris. It seems like thank you to our patrons for helping us afford uh enough equipment to have a third microphone. So now Chris can kind of help keep us on track. Uh if that's what you want to call the last session, and yeah, contribute a little bit more. We can have just more than me and Nate making weird voices.

Yep. I like it. It's been a nice help and addition to the Nat One presents.

If you uh aren't a patron, become patron because we still need a camera that can actually not run out of space during some of our sessions. So that'd be great. Um, so yeah, there's still still room. Uh we still got a place for you if you haven't become patron yet.

That and we got uh other plans coming up. Uh there's a Renfair coming up that we're gonna be live at. And basically we're just gonna be running around with a microphone, not connected to anything, and just getting in people's faces. We're just gonna be totally obnoxious. It's gonna be great. Uh what else what else is like going on, mate? Like with like anything? Like you watching any good shows? Are you excited about anything coming out?

I'm super uh I wouldn't say I'm I'm super excited about some upcoming anime stuff. Um, I'm not a big like Chris. I honestly say you're a kind of a big, bigger anime person than I am. I'm a binger. So I'll sit down and watch you know eight seasons of a show in you know a few days. But I know have you seen Demon Slayer, Nate? Yes, I have so everyone at this table has seen Demon Slayer, and everybody at this table has watched Netflix's Castlevania. Ooh, awesome. Um both of those. Uh so for Demon Slayer, uh movies coming out in like uh I think it's next week. Actually, it's next week is the is it Mugen Train? Yeah, it's M-U-G-N, I don't know how to pronounce it. Yeah, I think that's about right.

Um, but it's yeah, it's like the and it's it some anime movies are just like these totally side stories that have nothing to do with the main plot. This is like a direct where season one ends. This is a movie. Yeah. Ooh, that's exciting. Very exciting. Um, because Demon Slayer is a really great anime. There was just one season and uh people kind of critically acclaimed, and then in Japan, this movie is topping um even the um Miyazaki movies. The studio Ghibli stuff. Yep, it's yeah, exactly. Like it's breaking records. It's like the Titanic of anime, like basically. Uh so it's breaking records so it's coming here to the US, and that's rare too. Like an anime movie from Japan coming to theaters in the United States. Doesn't happen too often. Doesn't happen.

So uh I'm gonna drag Chris uh and maybe some friends next week to that. Dragon Nate to Mortal Kombat, and then uh and then Castlevania season four is like May 13th. Nice. Um it is the final season.

No.

It is, but there is talk about a spin-off maybe on the internet. I don't know. I didn't I didn't get to call it. Call D-Hunters! Do you think they would maybe commission us to know? Uh fingers crossed to sell off the rights. I'm I'm super pumped though. I mean, D-Hunters would make a great anime, and by great I mean terrible, right? But hilarious. But hilarious. Um, no, really, Castlevania is one of my like all-time favorite animes ever. It's good. Um is gonna come back. Uh yeah. Yeah. 100%. Especially with the ending, I think, uh last season. I think so. Do you think that bard, that weird bard guy, is gonna come back? Who made the portal and [expletive]? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. That [expletive] was true. Season three was weird, right?

Season one and season two, like season two is a continuation, season one, just more characters, better. And then season three was just like dark and [expletive]. Yeah. That's honestly what season three was. And if you guys were watching, uh you know what we're talking about. I'm not gonna get into it, but the those those twins, yeah, and uh the preacher guy or whatever, like at the end, like whoa!

Yeah, these kids just wanted a [expletive] apple, man.

Season got bananas. Uh so I'm looking forward to season four. A little sad that it might be ending, but we'll check it out. We'll uh you'll hear it from us first. Uh by first, I mean three weeks after exactly the fact we'll talk about it and then it'll come out maybe a month later, maybe never. Hard to tell. These things happen. So uh, what are we thinking about doing today? We have not done a class close-up in a while, and I was thinking that I assume zero data on this here, but I assume that our listeners want our very specific and insightful feedback on which and what classes to play. We had Kyle, Kyle, right, played his first game. Yep. Uh I don't think he was a druid, though. No, he wasn't.

He was a ranger. Yes, that's right. Kyle was a ranger, and we were so upset about it, yep, that not only did we admonish him in the comments of our Patreon, but we also decided let's do a whole session about ranger. So we were gonna do a class close-up today. How and when, if at all, to play the ranger. Never. Yeah. Say it right now, never. Yeah, so let's go into it. First of all, uh, if you've listened to the episodes before, you're gonna know that Nate does not like the ranger class. Correct. It's a waste of time. Yeah, and you know, I'm not gonna beat a dead horse horse, like we'll probably get into it more, but like we know why you don't like it. Chris, thoughts on the ranger class?

Uh, I think they are very versatile, but I think that's the issue with them is they don't really specialize in any one thing. Yeah, so they're kind of a worse version of every other class, but they can kind of fill roles in between. If your party doesn't have something, they can usually do it okay. So they're okay, kind of. That's about it. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Um, yeah, also not like I don't [expletive] on it as much as like Nate does, but the truth is I've never picked or I've never been inclined to pick the ranger class to play as. And that's interesting because I like utilitarian characters like the Bard that has a lot of spells that's like love the bard, love it.

Um I like spells that are like kind of useless but intended for a specific purpose. And I think ranger was supposed to be like that, but with land. But here's the thing like it just doesn't, it's like almost like 5e campaigns doesn't really utilize, like, yeah, terrain's there, it's part of spells, but like when we play campaigns, it just seems like DMs don't overly um like articulate and like limit what's going on based on terrain usage, like you could in the game, and maybe that's where ranger would have been better. Um, maybe I don't know.

Like no, I could totally see that. Like a favorite uh your favorite terrain or favorite monster, like if you actually talked with your DM and like look, you're gonna be fighting a [expletive] ton of orcs in like this kind of area, be like, okay, then the ranger might actually be useful. Yeah, you know, with with the the favorite enemy and then like butt bumping hunter's mark on everything, you can actually shell out some decent damage. But in a normal game of DD, they're not telling you that [expletive]. Like and then somebody, some jerks like the us here at Nat 1 presents, are like gonna make up some [expletive], and the ranger's just gonna be forgotten about in the back.

Yeah, and he'll shoot his bow and then miss on his turn, and then it'll that'll be his turn. Oh my goodness.

There is nothing more embarrassing to be in a party with a ranger who just keeps missing like what they're both. It's just like it's just sad and boring. Like it's like because like I, you know, it's like they're the mind, right? And I'm just imagining when you [expletive] think of an archer, like boom, like they they're like Robin Hood, like hitting like arrow on arrow on arrow on center target. Uh, let alone though, like at least they're hitting their target. Yeah, a ranger that just misses all the time, like holy crap. Embarrassing, like lame. That's lame. It'd be like a magician who can't like do any tricks.

Yeah, like you know, like would you want to see that guy ever goes to pull a rabbit out of the hat and just grabs the bottom of the hat on accident?

I mean, I made that character before.

And he was what was he?

What else is he? Um, an illusionist, so just a wizard, yeah.

Yeah, see, like every class does what would be ranger, but better, but better basically. That's I think that's kind of the theme maybe we're gonna go into. But let's say, can we take a step back? Like for people that are brand new, which we do have a lot of people like who don't play DD or are just a little bit interested, Ranger class. What roughly is that gonna look like? How do you play that class? Like, what what what do you in what how is it intended to be played, at least base class, before you get into subclasses?

I think we'll just uh take turns around the table. Chris, you want to go first and then we'll what we think a ranger should be in a party.

So I think rangers kind of fill in the same role as fighters do. They are kind of they can they're very customizable with what you want to do with them, um, but they're more limited to like two-handed fight or not two-handed fighting, two weapon fighting and ranged. Um they have like a little bit of magic, but it's all very specific magic. So they're like they're meant to fill gaps, and that's really it. But I feel like they're just they don't do it well enough for them to be a good choice. It seems like the bare minimum amount of planning in a party makes the class kind of irrelevant. But I think if that's really what you want to play, I think they have like a very strong identity, right? If nothing else. Right.

And then I that's what I would say is that you go into a ranger thinking, okay, I know what a ranger is. It's strider, it's aragorn, it's this manly, not even manly, it's this strong character that is kind of at one with nature and their surroundings, and is adept with with weapons, you know, and that's what you're thinking going into this. And then they have the different subclasses that can break it down, but it just doesn't provide that at all.

To me, it's like it's almost the opposite of what I'd expect. So, like, Bard, I truly think of just a musician, and then ranger, I think of this jack of all trades, can use multiple weapons, has multiple skills. It is almost like though the Bard got all of that, and then the Ranger got the like Ranger to me is about specialization. Like, like kind of Chris said, like, you you're you meant to specialize in something to probably fill a gap. And in a game where it's a lot of improvisation, literally all of it is it's storytelling, but usually through on any good campaign involves a lot of improvising, and so like being super custom really doesn't help you. Um, so I don't know. To me, it's almost backwards.

It's um I feel like ranger is like what bar or Bard is what Ranger should have been without the instruments. That's kind of my weird take on it.

Right. And if we're going just straight off the player's handbook, you should never pick a ranger. You could whatever you want to be, there's another class you can be, and it's gonna be better. If you want to be a bow master, be a fighter.

Yep. Be a fighter and just pick up a bow and you're immediately pretty much as good as a ranger. Right. You want to have pets, what wizard? There's probably like three classes. Any of the spellcasters.

Yeah, the warlock with the pact of the chain. You are a better beastmaster than the beastmaster ranger.

Um, yeah, it just pretty much. I mean, is there anything we can objectively say that a ranger is better at? I think they're really good at single target damage. Yes. With Hunter's Mark and I think uh Colossus Slayer or something like that, the upgrade to Hunter's Mark. Yeah, yeah. They can deal out a lot of damage to like one target. And especially like if it's a favored foe. Yep. They're so can you describe some of those abilities? A lot of people might know them, but maybe some like me don't remember all the details on exactly those abilities, how they work. Uh I think just roughly not the exact. I think Hunter's Mark is an extra d6 on a creature you've hit. Yep. I think is the restriction for it.

And Colossus Slayer, I think, is a d8 extra damage whenever you hit it.

Bumps it up just a little bit, but then that's still just a flat thing. So it's okay at the beginning levels. Yeah. Like you're strong, popping off at the beginning levels. But it doesn't scale. It doesn't scale. Like if you look at something like Eldrix Blast from a warlock again, it just keeps bumping up.

Even cantrips basically scale at your level. So again, just seems to be like this class is kind of disadvantaged in in most cases. Um, let's talk a little bit about subclasses. The uh we I mean we're we we we've said that objectively base class ranger trash. Yes. But of course, you always pick a subclass, and so there's got to be some good subclasses, right?

Uh there are if you're going off of the newer books. So the things from Xanthar's Guide and then Tasha's Cauldron, those have some actually really great subclasses, and then they tweaked the the ranger spells also a little bit too to really help out and push forward. But the the basic ones, your what Hunter and Beastmaster. Hunter should just be dissolved and that just be a part of Ranger.

Yeah, it feels like that's kind of your basic ranger, essentially.

And then the Beastmaster is it's okay now with the new spells, but before it was just weak and it was trash. Like you had to give up your attack so your animal could attack. Like that doesn't that ruins everything, it ruins my role play, it ruins my fantasy. Uh me being involved in it, it's just not a good time. I could [expletive] on the ranger all day long.

Yeah, if you listen to our DD deathmatch for Beastmaster versus Ringmaster, I was a Ranger Beastmaster, and mostly I ended up just like fighting with my Ranger. Like the Beast was like kind of irrelevant. I mean, it also got put in a cage, but that's beside the point. But I think well, if you guys haven't mentioned it already, like familiars can die for like a Beastmaster's pet can just die and it is dead. Right. Whereas like other ones, it's like, oh, you killed it. If you have another spell cell or whatever, you can resummon it. That's not the case with Beastmaster. So there's again more negatives almost again.

That maybe that has changed, but uh the original thing was like so like uh a wizard has a familiar and it dies. It's just a quick recast of a spell and it's back up. But for your ranger, you need to do an eight-hour long ritual to bring your buddy back up, and it was dead, like it was dead, dead.

It's dead, dead. Like, so you're just like summoning a dead animal, right?

You don't even get like a cool thing like a zombie bear pet stuff.

Just be a necromancy.

But I think uh some of the redeeming things are is the flavor that comes with the rangers. So if we're getting away from talking [expletive], like the idea of it that I couldn't can be this jack of all trades woodsman coming in here and tearing stuff up, the idea is there. And if you're going to be like what did we say earlier, uh a power player who's playing a ranger, so a power ranger, if you will, like it it does work out with single target damage to your favor, but everything else is just like niche.

What do we we would call that too like uh like a max maxer? Yeah, but max max or just maybe just not like like not only optimizing your character, but just straight up like cheating. Right. That's when you maybe you you should be a ranger, exactly. Okay. I mean, can we even we don't have to go into every subclass, but what are some what are some other options that uh ranger can do as a subclass? Um we talked about Beastmaster, we've talked about we didn't really talk about Hunter, but it's just like that's just the [expletive] it should have.

Right. I like the idea in Xanthars of the Gloomstalker. I like that, like like we said before, that flavor of it, like you're just this guy hunting creatures in the shadows kind of deal. Like you get a bunch of bonuses to uh like nocturnal creatures and things like that, and some damage bonuses. I I just like that idea where like you're really like this roguish ranger who excels in killing like underdark creatures, and that to me, like I want to play that class.

Yeah, flavor-wise, if you ever play Diablo, it's like a demon hunter, essentially. Yeah, it's pretty much a demon hunter, right? Yeah, it's pretty much that in a nutshell. Oh my gosh, yes, I would then I would be super into that as well. Um, what else? What else we got?

Um the Horizon Walkers, whatever, but the the one after that, what was it? Um it was the Monster Slayer. So the Monster Slayer, after making I made a bunch of characters to try to test out for myself as a Monster Slayer, and it's loaded up front, like you're gonna shell out damage right up front in the low levels, and you're gonna be fine going out. But it peaks kind of around level eight, ten, and then you see it just going back into the ranger class. They're like, uh, that was all we had. Yeah. So hopefully the campaign's over by then. Hopefully, you save the [expletive] day.

Yeah, hopefully we're not playing a long campaign or anything like that.

But I haven't been over the Tasha's Cauldron of Everything ones yet, and the Swarm Keeper one looks really cool.

Yeah. That reminds me very much of like uh if you watch Naruto, um, who would yeah, dude with sunglasses on the side. Yeah, the dude with sunglasses with the the bugs. I can't remember his name, unfortunately. But like I always thought he was like because he's so starkly different than the rest of the other like like ninjas that I was like he's pretty badass. Like I could see that, right? Like a swarm, like controlling not just a couple or like a variety of things, but swarms are just like massive amounts of stuff. I don't know, that seems cool to me, right?

And then like looking over stuff, let's see. Uh mighty swarm, your swarm abilities increase with dramatic effect, being able to knock the enemy prone. That's awesome, having abilities like that. But then, like we go back to the fighter gets a bunch of [expletive] like that where you can attack someone and have like repost or then knock prone if knock them with your shield and all these things. So it just depends. If you really want that flavor of the ranger, and you just don't want to say I'm a fighter, like you want to say you're a ranger, and then you get a little bit of spell casting with it, which is also a good perk. Yeah, but it's so hit and miss, is it's just tough to get really excited about it at this point.

It's kind of in the same vein that like Eldritch Knight, it's interesting, like subclass for a fighter, but also the spells aren't really that great because you're like so limited in schools that you can do. Uh, ranger is kind of the same thing on like spells you can cast are like very specific situations that you actually want to cast them. Besides, I think that they can get heal wounds.

I think I think they have a couple of or cure wounds.

Yeah, they have a couple of healing. Again, it's like very limited. Those are like touch spells, which kind of goes against what ranger does. You want to be either really far away from everybody or you want to be directly in combat. So it's their it's a real mixed bag with their spells. If we were going to just like start fresh, like we're making ranger now, what what what would you guys do? Or would some priorities be to like make this class like more interesting and more fun to play? Like what's an ability or something you'd want to do?

Because what like you made the Beastmaster. I love the idea of having the animal companion. So they have a cap on it right now. If you're not doing the the new spell, if you're going with the old one, they have a cap where it's like a CR quarter or something like that. It's the only animal that you can bring up. It's super low.

It's low, yeah.

So I think you should be able to adjust that and then tweak how your animal can attack. Like you should be able to attack with your animal in conjunction, just like what you would picture in a fantasy movie or real life. Like, okay, I'm gonna attack, and then my [expletive] zombie panther's gonna attack at the exact same time. Like double team.

Yeah, I think not only that, I would like to be say, like, you can add because everybody else can have a familiar, so not just a higher CR, but like you have like a list of like these abilities, and you can like pick an ability for your familiar for your beast, something like that, so that it's makes the being a beast master a little bit more like, yeah, like if you're a beast master, you don't just like have a pet, but like you trained it to do something cool. So like feats for for your your pets.

Ooh, for your pets, that would be cool. I like that idea.

I think it'd be interesting too to put like instead of having a CR cat for like the beasts that you can summon, have like a CR total that you could have, so you could also have more. Ooh, multiples, yeah. Yeah, you could have different ones to like cover different abilities that you want. I think that would be more interesting because again, if it's like beast master, it's not like you only have one. It's you are a master of beasts.

Right. I want a whole menagerie of animals. Like, I want a cart behind me with like 12 monkeys, a zebra back there, an alcoholic. And be like you picking orcs.

Let me see what I got back here. Like, you picked the wrong dude, man. I uh and we're not, of course, considering too much game balancing going on right now, but I wouldn't mind something kind of because you know, we like to like kind of [expletive] with things and have fun and believe in failure. So I don't mind abilities that kind of let you fail if you're not careful. So I like the idea of like almost like Pokemon, like when you have a Pokemon that's too high a level, it might not listen to you. Something like where you can like you can tame beasts. So like a skill where you actually like meet enemies and then you tame them, but then like based on maybe CR and other values.

Um CR, if you're listening, is just kind of like challenge rating. Challenge rating, which is just like supposed to indicate how strong or difficult something is or like a one-on-one situation, I think is the number. I'd like to see it that like you can have really high CR stuff, but there's maybe some backfiring, or like it just doesn't listen to you, or it's inaccurate, like it will attack a group of people. Oh yeah, going to rampage, right? Because like AoEs and exactly. So I think uh stuff like that would be a lot of fun too.

Um, you know, that's it kind of reminds me of like the wild magic sorcerer, like a little bit of controlled chaos, you know, and like that's not enough usually to get it could kill a party, but it's usually honestly mild, it's just inconvenient when wild magic goes off. So something like that where it's not so overpowered, but it it could be fun.

And I really wish in 5e that they had something where you could just completely give something up to have for your subclass. So for Ranger, completely give up your spellcasting ability and put that towards your animal companion abilities, like the idea I had with the the druid and the witch doctor idea where you could do necromancy spells, but then you lose your wild shape. But I'd be perfectly fine with that because like [expletive] wild shape if I can have a whole horde of [expletive] fungal zombies. Yeah.

So I think the the same thing with the ranger would be great, like just completely ditch your spellcasting ability, and then like we said, like have animal perks that you can have with your companion, have a whole menagerie of animals, and I think that would make the beast master class really fun to play.

Absolutely. Bare minimum, because a lot of that right, right, goes into like game balancing and whatnot, but bare minimum, I would say like when I was beastmaster for our deat match, um, I had to take like a cavalry feat to even be able to like ride my animal. So, like, don't make me have to take feats to even just be a beastmaster or like be like certain stuff just needs to be taken out and like added to kind of like you said, that whole hunter subclass, just add certain stuff and make it just a little bit more viable.

So that then I can take feats and customize it a little bit, but it's almost like when I see people building ranger classes, they're they're forced to like just build basic functionality with using feats, using the extra stuff that normally you you use to make your character cooler or more specialized, right?

Or bump up your stats, but now you're fighting like, okay, do I bump up my stat or do I take something that can be useful?

Yeah, it's not like a fun creative thing anymore or a direction now. It's like this is the only way I might even be relevant, maybe. So right. And that's tough, man. Um in pop culture, we talked about, right? So Strider slash Aragorn, what like where else do we see like a good ranger that like maybe we could like model like in the future? Um I mean Crisp had a good one, like demon hunter kind of versions um from Diablo. Um but there's gotta be other, like come on, like tracker type. Right, because what's the super popular one? Dritz? Yep, is the the big one. He's the two weapon fighter one with the panther.

Yes. And he's badass. And it made me automatically think he's not Ranger. He's a guy at the Panther.

Who's Dritz?

Uh I think it shows it up, yeah. That guy right there.

Oh, okay. So he's from like DD Lore. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Like the novels and stuff. He's a drow elf, and he's like this is what Ranger is, and that's what like a lot of people kind of gravitate towards when they think of Ranger. At least when it comes to uh DD. Yeah. I'd also just like to uh it's not so much pop culture anymore, but like I'd like to see Rangers be more like tacticians, like versus just I like they're like the strategy people, in my opinion. So I'd almost like them to be able to like anticipate moves better and stuff like that. I I know a ranger in pop culture. Green arrow is one of them.

His whole thing is like his quiver has just a million different types of arrows where he can like if he wants to knock someone out, he pulls out an arrow that's got a boxing glove on the end of it. It's like silly, but like that gas comes out of it and like people just like that's like the general idea. Him and Hawkeye being like kind of the superhero equivalents, but they're really just dudes that fire bows and arrows. Right. You know, they're still kind of lame, you know.

They're not the best, like a ranger, you know, but they're there and they're supposed to be the tacticians. But right now, if you want to play a tactician style character, then you're better off going with that rogue one. Was there a mastermind rogue?

Yeah, there's a rogue subclass that is exactly that. Right. And yeah, I I think like there's a place for that, but it could still vary in terms of like like uh a ranger tactician should like understand the landscape better and should be able to modify it more than like lame ass terrains, or like, okay, you can you have choice speed in this like [expletive] terrain. Or like that's dumb [expletive]. I want you to be able to like like literally like you have high ground, you have advantage, like you know, [expletive] like that, right? Like whatever.

Um and that could be due to like the type of games that we play too, because we play fast-paced, go, go, go, battle, finish through the story, go. And then I know a lot of people out there like to play the long, slow games where like when you travel, like it takes time and you have to forge for food. And then if you're playing a game like that, then I think the ranger really shines in something like that.

It is uh, you know, encumbrance. I've never played a game where we use like adding up the weight of your equipment or anything like that. Um, now that I don't think that's necessarily popular opinion. I don't know. Like I've I played with a couple groups and none of them have done it, but I don't know if I could say that that's the majority of people, though. Right. Do people generally play with the encumbrance? I don't think so. I think it's like just very rare cases of just like you're trying to carry something that's like 3,000 pounds. It's just like, yeah, okay, you can't really do that.

I I think when probably you know, with most new groups, right, there's always like some new players, and like there's so much to learn, and like there's already a learning curve for D D that like adding and adding up like the weight of your equipment, like that's just like that's not the fun part they should be learning. You just want them to show up and like know their job and their abilities and skills, and so like I think it starts with that, and then people never learn the rest of the like. So it's probably like 20 or 30 percent of the game, nobody even knows because we always focus on that like core kind of necessary, like 70% that is needed to play the get in and get out.

Yeah, like please show up next week. Just speaking, like purely role play. What would be like a funny, like our fun, you know, uh Nat 1 style ranger?

Ooh, that's tough.

Definitely I I would think like a ranger who's like just like perpetually lost, like type deal, like like he doesn't know where he came from, like and like he can only find things by accident. Yeah, amnesiac ranger, yeah, something like that. Yeah, like like the like the less he remembers, the like more powerful his tracking is. I don't know, something weird or you know hates nature, yeah. I could see like a pirate tracker, like you know, like giant app with like the compass. It's like if you don't know what you want, like the compass like anywhere. I could see like that kind of ranger who's like he's like the best in his industry when he knows what he's actually looking for, like that type of deal. It just turns out he's in a slump, right?

He's just he's having a day uh or a year or a decade. I think that would be fun, like a cool I I would want that ranger. Um basically I think the theme in everything we just said is like somebody who's confident but not competitive, uh yeah, but not confident, um, for sure. I think that would be any of those angles I would enjoy.

Um so looking back on it, um have have you ever played because I know you, Nate, have never played a ranger.

Ever.

Chris, have you ever played a ranger? No. I have made a bunch of rangers because all the ideas sound cool in my head, like I'm gonna make this. But actually getting to the table, I'm like, no, this ain't gonna work out for me. So when the games that we played, have you ever been impressed by something that a ranger has done ever?

Never. I mean, I I do think this goes to I play with certain groups that like prioritize like having fun, like improvising, uh, so we don't do things like really taking the land or like certain stuff into account. But no, I I don't think I've ever and in fact I'm usually underwhelmed, right? Like I think like good berries is [expletive] stupid and [expletive] like that. Like I'm usually just like really, like, what a waste of a skill or an ability or like you got berries in your pocket, like congratulations. Like, I'll drink a help post. Yeah, exactly. And not eat nasty part of it. Yeah, you know.

I think there's been exactly once that rangers have been like very helpful, and I think it was Pass Without a Trace, which I think is a Ranger-specific thing. I don't think other classes can get that, but it was actually a campaign that we were part of where we like dropped in and we were surrounded by Drow, and it was like, Yeah, we're gonna die unless we get out of here, and Pass Without a Trace actually let us escape. Where it was like there was really no other way for us to get out, but we managed to you were most impressed by a ranger helping you retreat. Like that's that's as good as it gets. But now I'm not saying no, I I get that, but like that's it.

Like the best example we can think, top tier is retreating. Yeah, like you I mean again, it's that like super specific situation where you need something and it can provide.

Right. So at the end of the day, when do we think it's best to say, hey, you know what would fill this gap right here is a ranger class. And in my head, I'm thinking we already have a full party, we already have a healer, we already have damage dealer. Uh you know what? Let's just round it out, and you can just be a ranger and try to make something up and at least throw in some flair or something to kind of bring life to it, a life to the party. And if you miss all your shots, no big deal. Maybe you're a goofball that everybody loves.

I would say you have to have like a party dynamic who's willing to like listen and let like somebody be useful. Like, I almost feel like like it wouldn't work for any art parties, right? Because we usually like there's no leader, there's no like, oh, like people are competing to do their dumb thing, is what usually happens in our parties. But if you had a party where we're like, all right, only the ranger like knows how to get us through this, like, this area. Oh, yeah, and like force it on kind of whether they're good or not, that would be fun because then you could laugh at them when they fail, or you like you know, you like go in trusting them and maybe you lose trust. That would be cool.

But when it's like because there is a tendency to be lame or just like disappointing, yeah, if when when you just like only give them one shot, like uh in like an hour, and then they do something lame, you're like, no, over it. Right, never again. It's never gonna work. But if you have a party where we're like, all right, all airs on you, like what do we do? Then I think it would be more fun. If you're gonna let somebody play that kind of role in your party and you're gonna stop and you're gonna listen, I think that person that is when you should have a ranger in your party. I think that would be fun. And like actually give the ranger an opportunity to shine.

No one can navigate, like you have to, it has to like come from the you know, the ranger. It has to be someone that's already skilled in this particular or you have to roll banana rolls to like you know get through this.

Um I like that a lot. I think that would be a lot of fun.

Yeah, we never do it because like we just don't listen. That's too much planning and organization.

Yeah, so we'd be like, I'm just gonna go kidnap a guide.

It would always like it. We would retreat out of like a haunted forest to go kidnap someone from a market, you know, from like a tour guide from a town, before we would just ask the ranger to just throw them in my bag of holding, and then by the time we got out to the woods, it'd be like, Oh [expletive], there's no air in there. Yeah, he died. All right, let's go get another one. That's another thing. Uh I think like items such as bag of holding and other stuff, like make it so you don't even need a ranger.

Like, if you had to be limited with your equipment and couldn't just hoard everything, then like you would maybe need the ranger to forge for food because it's food or ammo and you need ammo, but that never happens either. Like, you know, nobody plays that way, and then there's even items that help you cheat that. So I think I would say one of the things though is if you're limiting ammo, that makes ranger even harder to play if they're like range, because it's like you only got so many arrows and then you gotta go [expletive] pick them up, right?

So it's almost like uh it's like a lose-lose or a catch 22 because we're saying, like, oh, a ranger might be good if you have like encumbrance and stuff, but if you have encumbrance, your ranger is actually less useful because it has to carry all this [expletive]. So many arrows. So it's almost like, god damn. Yeah, you know, it seems like rangers are really only good if it's someone that's already very good at playing DD as a whole, and they can like compensate for all of the weak points.

It would be like, imagine playing Diablo and all that inventory management, and then that person had to like talk about that out loud, like on their turn, of like, well, I need to like combine these jewels, and then I need to like uh I'm gonna actually move this over so it fits better in my bag. Yeah, and then I can put like two smaller items next to this longer item.

Like that, nobody And that's gonna cost me 120,000 gold, and then I gotta go back and sell the helm of power.

I think that would actually be again. I like stupid [expletive]. I would play with the like overly logistical like banker cut. Such a boar. Yeah, who's like the [expletive] banker from Monopoly of like that clearly wouldn't work, guys? Like, that's poisonous. This leaf doesn't grow in this region, and like that bark is gonna give you rash.

Like, you know, like I'd almost want to take notes so I could prove them wrong at some point and be like, I'm gonna take this [expletive] down, be like, nah, last week you said it was 50,000 gold. Now you're saying it's 75. Yeah, caught you in a lie. Got him. Now I'm out of here because this isn't fun.

It sounds, I don't know, maybe it sounds better out loud than it it would on paper, but um, I I could see that.

Right. So I I seriously think that if you do want to play a ranger, like Kyle's playing a ranger right now, and he said he had a great time. So I think he has probably a good DM. So I think uh a combination of a serious roleplay adventure combined with a good DM to allow you to maybe tweak things the that can work or just let you play to have fun. I think that would be the best combination to make a ranger like a viable choice.

Yeah, I I agree. Flexible DM and then a party who's gonna like actually try to rely on you and your your skills a little bit. Right canon, not canon. Um man, you know, rangers are so lame. I got nothing else to say. I know this might be the shortest episode ever because we picked a lame ass class. That's all there, you know. Like, I don't really know what else there is to say. I mean, I still at the end of the day, if I would still say pick someone else. Like, really, like to be honest, I still like we talked about how you could make it work, and if you're just like, oh, I just need to be arrogant so bad, cool, you can do it.

You know, those are the conditions we just described to make it possible, right? But if you're like, I just really want to have fun, don't pick Ranger, you know. Like we we can go ahead and and say that that like despite everything what we want it to be, what it could be, maybe some of the things that it is actually good at, doesn't it? It's not enough. Just be ready to sacrifice your character around level eight and roll a different class. Yeah, exactly.

Be fine because you break it down, like what do you want to play? Be like, okay, I want to dual wield, fine, go be a rogue, go be a fighter. I want to have an animal companion. You know what? Be a wizard, a warlock, or be a [expletive] druid, circle of the shepherd, and then you got all the [expletive] animals you want right there. Anything else? You can even be an animal if you want, right? Boom, perfect. You can be Jackie Doo Bears. And then what else is there? You want to be the tactician, there's rogue again. Basically, I think rogue took a lot of the stuff that makes a ranger a ranger and just made it better, especially then if they get sneak attack on everything.

Hunter's Martin gives you one d6, but sneak attack scales with you, but crushes it.

It scales a lot better, too. Oh, yeah. And we didn't even talk about if you have like a DM who actually wants to do the whole like a ranged attack, like within five feet, like you know, all that garbage. That kind of stuff. Yeah, well then have fun being a ranger. Like, hopefully, you've like put stuff in other weapons and other equipment that you have to carry around, but it just I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I'm just like, [expletive] this class, dude. Like literally, hell no. Yeah, it's a hard pass.

Yeah. I wish they would have continued on with the the total rework because I know Wizards was talking about it. You like just scrapping the PHB version and like okay, here's the new ranger. And then I was reading the Unearthed Arcana, and it's actually really nice. It's scalable with the fighter as far as like your damage output and everything, and it gave you that flair. And I guess they're like, you know what, [expletive] it.

Yeah, too much work. I wonder, I don't know. I've heard like it's one of those things like you hear it every year. Word on the street. Word on the street, right? Is that like version six or version whatever D D is coming? I you just keep hearing more and more rumor mail stuff, but nothing official. So maybe in my my wildest dreams, it's that they're holding on to the good ranger for the next. They improved it and they're just like, why save a sinking ship? Let's just in the next version, like let's just make a new ship instead. Let's just make a new ship, you know. Exactly.

Ooh, that's gonna be tough. Like, since we have a little bit of time, what do you think about adjusting to a new system? Like if uh 6e comes out, do you think we would transfer to 6e or do you think we would continue to just play 5e rules?

I think it would be different for different people at the table. Um, I would immediately just spend all my money on new stuff um because I like new things. Right. No, yeah, just like I think um, and also I definitely came to 5e years later. I don't know when 5e came out, but a little while ago. Um I came to it late and I did it because I just wanted to make friends, and so it's almost like I was already so behind that like people already like read books and lore and like read like I just from the get-go felt behind going into six, I would absolutely read all that [expletive]. And uh and I feel like I would be like more invested. So yeah, I would love to start fresh. I don't know.

I feel like everybody people I talk to or people I read online, like they're all waiting for six. I think they would be down. And because a lot of people still do like 3.5, like and and there will always be people who like the last version, but that's the version before the last version. Right, nobody liked four. No, yeah, nobody likes it. Everybody I talked to [expletive] hated four. I I feel like people are still looking like five went in a different direction than like 3.5 did. They went very player friendly, and they tried to make things like streaming and made it a lot easier to get into.

So which worked out for us, you know, just starting out, because this is the only edition I've ever played. I have the advanced DD book, and man, I read a couple pages in that. I'm like, this is [expletive] complicated.

Like, this is [expletive] was that for 3.5? The advanced book is a good one.

No, it's for advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Like one playing, oh, okay. Like first edition. Okay. And I was it's like reading like a computer repair manual. I'm like, I see the pretty picture.

That's something. Old school tabletop RPGs are so like number crunchy, there's like a million different things. So it it's definitely intimidating and tough to get into and very hard to get into like a flow when you're playing. And I think 5e is is like like too much for me, but I don't play a lot. I'm the the least uh tabletop experience kind.

Right, but I can see what you're saying, where like it would be nice to be like, okay, six E's the game now, everybody's starting fresh, nobody knows more than somebody else. We're all we're all on the same playing field. I would let's learn it together as we play.

Because I'm at the point where I just play the classes I'm comfortable with, kind of because like I don't want to be the guy who doesn't know all of my class, and I don't want it like there'll always be like Chris will literally just always know more than me, even though it's not we started around the same time, so he's not the best example. But yeah, I would feel more confident to be like, I'm just gonna play these random new classes because everybody's learning. So yeah, I'd be down. I mean it's not really a ranger thing, but I I'd be in there. Might be a ranger there, or they might just scrap the class all together and just make it fighting. One can hope. Just give honestly, just give ranger type abilities to other classes.

You know, maybe that's what they'll do. They'll get rid of ranger, just make it a subclass of fighter and put in like artificer as just like one of the core ones. Yeah, well, because ranger makes sense if you did get rid of ranger, right? It would it could make sense for druid, it could make sense for rogue, or it definitely makes sense for rogue, it could make sense for like fighter. Uh I mean it could like it could work for so many other things, you know, or like even like a bard plus a ranger to me is like a cartographer, so I don't know, you know, or maybe an art artificer. So I I think like it could just be like put it into other stuff, which is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

It is what it is. It we don't have to like hey, we've been playing games long enough that like you know, you play Gaunt Legends, like there's a guy with the bow, and like cool doesn't mean it needs to be a class in D D D. Honestly, no, right? Like I think it's fine uh to switch it up in different versions, and like they're they're gonna launch with at least you know a dozen or something like classes, something like that, maybe just eight, or I don't know, yeah, making numbers out of my ass. But I I honestly think like it's okay if you don't want like they'll have some kind of magic, they'll have some kind of melee, and they'll have some in between.

Like it and so we don't if there's not a wizard next one because there's three other types of magic, I'll be okay with that. I don't think it'll happen. Probably not. Oh, yeah.

What if they make it something like a path of exile where there are no set classes, and it's like, do you want to just do melee or do you want to do magic or do you want to do something in the middle there? And like, and then you completely customize what your character is.

Path of Exile is so hard to get into. I wouldn't want that hard. I wouldn't want that to be like not digital and just like present it to me on paper. Oh gosh. I think what our our Ranger conversation has talked into is like at this point, we'd rather just play a different tabletop RPG. Like that's how that's how much we don't like Ranger. Is like if we're gonna have to play Ranger, we'll just go play Call of Cthulhu or some other stuff. Ooh, [expletive] yeah. Which we do have we have a bunch of stuff. I bought I bought the starter, a basically like starter board game of DD to try to play just to like figure it, like just for fun.

But then we won, we we we do play ish Call of Cthulhu, but there's a ton of TTRPGs that I would love for us to like honestly it'd be cool if we if it wasn't such a learning curve and like the fact that you're like a parent and like some of us have jobs and [expletive], like it would probably be cool if we could just learn those games and try them because DD probably isn't the end all be all. Right. Um, but it's the most successful. If someone brand new or someone in our listeners is gonna pick up a game, it's probably gonna be DD.

And it's the idea you go into thinking about like stranger things, like they're playing DD. It's the the tabletop RPG that's like the go-to that everybody knows. But I think everybody should play Call of Cthulhu because it's far superior.

Absolutely. If you like, you know, skill checks and just like role-playing and kind of just more like well-rounded characters that just because like combat I think is the least fun thing in DD. But like that's what a lot of the game is built around, honestly. And like honestly, there's more there's more skill and literal literal verbiage around fighting than there is about just like role play skills.

It's like the most complex because your your role-playing is just whatever, like you only have so many skill checks you can go through, and then at the end of the day, you're like, you know what, just give me a dex check. Yeah, like I don't even care about the other [expletive]. Just give me a dex.

Exactly. All right, well, we we uh managed to add another 15 minutes to the ranger episode that we were really struggling with. You're welcome. Uh, thank you for listening. As always, go ahead and if you're on social media, uh share, share your favorite episode with people uh who don't. We're always looking for new listeners, new viewers, want to build our community. Um, leave us a review if you're on Apple Podcasts or if you're listening overcast, hop on in Apple Podcasts real quick and leave us a review. That helps us out, gets us in the charts and whatnot. Um, we have a Patreon if you want to help us get more equipment, get better stuff.

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