Closeup | Dungeon Master Do's and Don'ts

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On this episode of Nat One Presents.

And again, mind you, you were stealing this cart, so there was someone locked in a closet. You were at his like place of work, which was also his home, and you were standing there for literal hours deciding on the dinosaur you wanted.

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In this episode of Nat One Presents, we will be doing Dungeon Master do's and don'ts. And believe it or not, we are missing Nate again. So we have a special guest by my good friend Chris, our good friend Chris, a companion in arms for the DD adventures that we unravel throughout time. So feel free to sit, listen, and enjoy. And like it, man, like it and join the Patreon. It's just a dollar. Hello and welcome back to Nat One Presents the Podcast. Today we have another special episode with another special guest. Hi Chris. Hello. How are you doing today? Okay. That's fantastic. A man of many words is Chris. Tell us a little bit about yourself. What what brought you to the podcast today?

Uh well, for the last episode you guys recorded. I was behind the camera. Mm-hmm. How was that? Did you enjoy it? It's very weird. I can see it. It got very hot in here because the lights are right next to where the camera was.

I was opening up my heart and soul to everybody and just dumping sweat. And trauma. Right, lots of trauma coming out. For sure. Um for those of you who don't know, uh, Chris is the originator of our Sugar [expletive] saying nickname, I guess you could say, that we use. It's in our first animation video. Now, Chris, walk me through. Tell me, take me back to the day where sugar [expletive] became a reality.

Uh the real life version or the DD version? The the real life first. So if I remember right, I think it was one of our friends from uh one of our friends from college, one of the people that lived in the same dorm as us. Uh he just he had silly names for like everyone.

And it was one of his teachers that I think he called Sugar [expletive], and I think we just Dan and I, which we were living together and later on like formed the like quad that was uh he and I and then Nate, the other Nate, right, uh, and his roommate, we like formed together as a friend group, and Dan and I just kind of kept that and it just kept getting interjected over time, and it's just it's a real funny name to just call someone.

I think it's hilarious. Now, unlike our last guest, Steph, who was a complete stranger to me, and I had no idea who she was, she could have actually been a burglar breaking into Nate's house, and I would have had no idea, like, take a seat, let's talk. And then she takes a seat and leaves. She could have just stole it. But we actually have a little bit of history. Me and Chris uh played DD at the mall, and so we actually know each other, so I know he's not a stranger. Now, the sugar [expletive] story at the mall, you were actually DMing for that. Correct. How did you feel that story unfolded on what was supposed to be a beach episode?

Uh, I mean, my DMing style, I'm much more for organic storytelling because I don't like to have to do a lot of work. Right. So I was all for it. Like everyone was just really into it and running with it, and it was great. I didn't have to do [expletive], right?

And you were open and willing to work with us on our new imaginary friend Sugar [expletive], for sure, until he passed away three times. And uh I think that is going to roll us into today's topic for Nat One Presents the Podcast. Dungeon Master do's and don'ts. So for the first do, I say I appreciated how you rolled with it. Like you have to be able to roll with the punches.

Yeah. I I think we come from very different ways of DMing. You seem to like to do a lot more planning than I do. There were literally days when Nate and I came to the mall together where it was like, I didn't do anything, I just had the books with me. I didn't plan anything. It's just like, all right, let's see what happens.

Yeah, definitely. I am uh a compulsive planner, I guess you could say, which can sometimes be bad, especially with our group of friends that we play with, because I would work for the entire week on our story of what's gonna happen next. And then we get to the point, and then these people are like, nope, not gonna do that. We're going over here. Yeah. And that's very disheartening.

I imagine it can be. I never plan stuff out that much personally. I think it's a lot better to be very flexible with what you're doing because who knows what people are gonna want to do. And it's it's just more fun for everyone if you just roll with it.

I agree 100%. The the main reason we're there is to have fun. And like nobody wants to be that guy who just reads straight from the book. And especially in a game like Dungeons and Dragons, that you use your imagination and theater of the mind to be told no. Yeah. Like, man, I'm just gonna pack up my [expletive] and go. Like, you can't tell me no. This is supposed to be like real life.

I don't think I ever told anyone, no, you can't do that, unless it was you're going to kill yourself and everyone else, so you're not gonna do that.

So think about it. At least think about it.

Maybe reconsider.

I wish you would have told our paladin from the University of Phoenix no, because then sugar [expletive] would still be alive to this day.

I mean, I don't think I think I mentioned it to Nate, but I don't think I told anyone else. I had just a journal for me to like jot things down, and I was keeping like strikes of just like that kind of goes against what he wants to be doing with us, and I think he was one off of just losing his powers altogether, just being a guy. Yeah, pretty much. Like he would have still had the armor and stuff, but he couldn't do anything.

Oh yeah, I would have liked that. It was close. Almost happened. So, what do you think are some like important key factors in being a master of the dungeons?

Uh, I think one of the biggest things is kind of being prepared for whatever is going to happen. Uh I know for me, a lot of it was just I front-loaded all of my work. I made charts of just like, all right, if they're in like a jungle area, I'm going to make a chart for rolling for random monsters and what pages they're on. And I just made a bunch of tools for myself so I didn't have to do any work week to week. So I think preparedness, knowing what you're going to need, making sure you bring everything that you're going to use is important. Right. I think it's most important.

I can see that 100% because there's nothing worse, especially if you're running uh a module or something like that. And then somebody's like, okay, we're just gonna go over here instead and be like, oh my god, okay, hold on, let me find the page. Flip, flip, flip, flip, flip. Um, are you here? No, we didn't want to go there. Oh [expletive]. Okay, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip. And then like that just takes everything away. That's almost like our extremely long battles that we've been out. Yeah. Just some total mood killer.

Yeah. It can be tough. Uh, which another point on that. Uh, I think it's very important to like not be afraid to be an [expletive] to your players. Right. Like, be fair, but like you're there to kind of like master everything so you're in control. So if people are getting really hung up on, say, I don't know which dinosaur to buy in order to pull a cart, yeah. Maybe you need to uh step in a little bit and like, all right, let's move this along.

For uh those of you who don't know, we spent a good half of an entire session, these are three-hour sessions, mind you, picking out what dinosaur in Cholt is going to hold all the material for the party. It's basically gonna be our workhorse. I remember specifically, Nate left and went to the bathroom and came back. We were still talking about dinosaurs. I left and went and got snacks, moseied around, look at the figures and the paint and whatever else I can [expletive] look at in the store. Still went to the bathroom, came back, and we're still discussing dinosaurs. That was probably the worst. I felt like that was such a waste. Like I drove all the way down here. That was one of the worst.

I wouldn't say it was the worst. It was one of the worst.

And I'm like, what is going on? Like, do we even need a [expletive] dinosaur?

That uh no, it was for the cart that you guys stole. Oh, yes, that's correct. From that guy you locked in the closet. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's a good time. And I don't remember what you did to his family.

Well, wasn't there like a little boy that Nate flashed behind some bushes or something like that? There was something about that. I remember something like that. Yeah. But like that, I think that's a good thing with the DM, is like you would always go with the flow and like be flexible with letting us do something that makes sense in the world.

Which I think like going off on tangents like that is a downfall of being like organic storytelling, because like I didn't really know what to do to like get this to move on. It was just like, just pick one. I don't care. They're gonna be almost the exact same thing. They're going through the books and looking at the stat blocks and everything. And it's like, oh my god.

It's like uh like this doesn't even make sense because like in the real world, like what are you doing? Like, are you at a car lot and you're like looking at the sticker that's slapped on the side of this dinosaur and be like, oh, it says here he can run 30 feet. Check that out.

And again, mind you, you were stealing this cart, so there was someone locked in a closet. You were at his like place of work, which was also his home, and you were standing there for literal hours deciding on the dinosaur you walk.

I think in this uh wagon heist time would be of the SC. Yeah, you would think it'd be a bit higher of a price. Like, just grab whatever's there. Yeah, grab the stegosaurus [expletive] let's get out of here.

Hell, just have one of the strong people pull the whole cart. Just like probably don't have the debate there, right? Just go somewhere. Let's go a block away at least. Yeah, and then we'll talk about it.

But no, it didn't work that way. No, not not with that group. So, how do you feel as far as so like character selection, as far as uh allowing like unearth arcana or homebrew or things like that into your campaign style? Do you think other DMs should be more flexible to it or less? Because we started off in Adventures League, and that is the worst everybody out there. Like, if you were first new to DD, go to Adventures League and try it out. But then immediately after you find a group of friends and you get out of there. Yeah because that will suck the life out of your DD experience for sure. It's not the most fun. Like you need to play this, this, and this, and we are gonna be doing this specific thing.

And everyone gets a little bit of everything. And if someone has something already, they can't have anything else until everyone else has one. It's it's not fun. Right. For anybody, especially for like a role-playing fantasy setting, just like let people do what they want.

So after starting out in something like that, how do you feel about letting kind of more loose and relaxed things, especially when it comes to character creation, into the fold?

So I'm all for it. And I'm when I was making the campaign, they everyone played, I was I went in with the intention of I want everyone to play whatever it is that they want to play. If they want to bring in homebrew stuff, just run it by me first so I can take a look and I can see what it is that they're gonna be doing. Because I wanted to bring everyone's power level up to match whoever was the highest. Right. So that way everyone can do whatever they want, everyone can have fun with their characters, and I think that would just be more enjoyable overall. But I'm like, I'm all for homebrew stuff. I think it's way more fun.

Like, who why is it that wizards gets to decide what is and isn't canon for what you're creating, right? So just do whatever you want, man.

I agree with that a hundred percent. Like, not to an extent where something's overpowered, but let it come in because even in the real world, somebody's a little bit more special than other people at something. So if you have five standard wizards and they all do the exact same thing, that kind of makes a very vanilla story. It gets boring pretty quick, right? And that's no fun for anybody.

Yeah.

So why not have that extra powered like homebrew voodoo druid that we talked about, you know? Like, I still want to play it, Patreon people. Like, send it in and I'm gonna play it. I don't even have anybody to play DD with right now, and I'm gonna play it. I'll make my kid play with me. Right?

I mean, I'm not gonna have your kid play with me, but he's actually really good.

Nate played with him, he's super smart, and he makes funny jokes. He made a Boston Tea Party joke and had everybody rolling on the floor. He's only nine years old. So it's about as fun as playing with a nine-year-old can be. Actually, a little bit more so because were you there for the noble kid? I was not. Oh my god, you missed out. This goes back to Adventures League because if you go to Adventures League, you don't know who's showing up for this thing. And everybody has to play, everyone gets to play, all the same level character. This kid should not have been there whatsoever. His parents left him in a dark room in the back of a game store with a bunch of adults, and like, there you go, peace out.

And it's not like super weird, but if you think about it, it's kind of weird. And then we try to do our best. Me having a kid, I think I was the most reasonable one there. But it got to a point where like, you're not my kid, so I don't like you, and you need to cut this out and not come back because the whole time he's like, I'm a noble, I'm rich. I'm like, No, you have a starting gold amount like everybody else. You're not just rich, you can't go buy whatever you want. I have plate armor. Like, you're a ranger, you don't have plate armor. I mean, maybe you have it in your bag, but it's just kind of heavy, right? So, what's going on?

You know, at one point he looked into a pool, and I think I'm the one who pushed him. I pushed him right to that pool, and he's like, I'm not gonna take off my armor. Like, well, this is where you die then.

Yeah. I mean, to be fair, if you had plate armor on, I think the book says it takes like 15 minutes to take it off, right? So yeah, it's kind of damned anyway.

And I always like uh rules like that. How have you ever thought about for like extended campaigns? Because we would always play semi-extended campaigns for the most part. How do you feel about the rules to make it more realistic, like uh forging for food and things like that? Do you have to have the right group for that?

Yeah, I I think like a lot of the like nitty-gritty rules are more for like you can include them, but you don't have to, and it's really dictated by the group, like spell components. That's not something I've ever played in with any of the random groups of DND or random people I played DD with because no one likes spell components. Right, it's too much of a pain in the ass to like handle doing all of that, especially like it sounds kind of fun until you get to the like the practice of it, yeah. And then like when you get to higher level stuff, it's like you need this exact gemstone. It's just like I'm in the middle of a [expletive] desert. What am I gonna do?

Right, and then for like gold costs, especially for wizards, like now you're spending all of your gold to do kind of your job, yeah, and that's no fun for anybody.

No, it it really like disincentivize like doing any kind of spellcasting, right? Because it's just like I could just buy a sword, just like invest like 12 gold and be done, right?

And then I could still do all my abilities and all my magical [expletive], but now I don't have to do anything with it, yeah.

Right.

But I always wanted to like try it though, at least, but like you definitely need the right group. Like, okay, now you need to go forage for food. But I say I want to try it, but then if we played it for like two hours straight, I'll be like, you know what? I'm getting [expletive] tired of forging for food.

Like, yeah, let's go. You would just like get one person that can cast, like, I think it's like Goodberry or something, which is like he can just create things that satiate you for a day, and it's just like, all right, I'm gonna just spend a spell slot on that done.

Druid spell, by the way. Good bearing. So jot it down. Druids.

So when playing with other people that DM'd for our group specifically, what were some things you took away where you're like, man, I would not have done that? Or like what you're doing is not fun, and almost makes me want to leave.

Um so I think one big thing is like always be fair when you're being an [expletive]. Like, if you're gonna be an [expletive], don't tell everyone that you're being an [expletive]. Just like roll a dice, you accidentally roll a one, just say it's a 20. Just like don't let anyone else know. Because if you're like outwardly being an [expletive], that just gets everyone to be like really aggressive. Makes it not fun really fast. Right.

Or like, I'm tired of all of you guys uh being dual class and having being fighters that can cast shield. So you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna throw out [expletive] six fire shield giants, and that'll shut you up. Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about. Like, there should have been another way around that. I think that's a key uh component when you're DMing. Like, don't be the iron fist who's like, you know what, it's gonna be my way, deal with it. If you're gonna be that guy, at least come up with something creative and fun. Yeah.

They kind of fall into themselves because of the playstyle if you don't like it. Set a trap and don't just like push them in, just let them wander into it themselves. Right?

Like, if you get a rogue who's always stealing [expletive], like sure, set a mechanical trap. You know, it's two different checks for a mechanical trap or a magic trap. So you can throw that out there, be like, oh yeah, you unclicked the mechanical trap, no problem. Sweet, I'm gonna open it up. Alright, now fireball cast in your face. Deal with that. Yep. You didn't check, not my fault.

That just that makes me think. I forget which campaign it was, but coming across for whatever reason, there was like a little kid in an abandoned house, and we like went in looking for them, and then there were just gnomes having sex. It might have been your campaign now that I think about it.

No, not me.

I don't do stuff like that.

And then was it? Was there like a fire? It was like a breakdown house or something.

Because then we locked them in the closet, and then it might may have been me that I set a fire to the rug underneath the door, and it may have burned down, but you know. Yeah, actually, that probably was mine. I think that was the steampunk one, I think. I think so. And it was definitely me that set fire day everything. Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. But that was a good time for everybody.

Yeah, that was fun.

And again, the whole point is fun. I mean, there was a campaign where we blew up an orphanage, and that was still fun. Right. Even though that's not a cool thing to do in real life, probably.

Well, you don't know really what happens with these orphans, you know. Like they could have been evil orphans. Yeah, exactly. We actually got a comment before that we kill a lot of kids in our shows or in our uh yeah, our show and our campaign. You know, I think it's just an easy target. Uh, one of my best memories was the same steampunk campaign where our paladin again exploded a newspaper boy in the street because he didn't like what he had to say. He's just delivering newspapers, and it's a small child, newspaper boy. Only I only gave him one hit point to begin with, and he's like, I'm gonna teach this kid a lesson and do like two levels of smite on this guy. So, of course, he just explodes in the street. Yep.

What did I do wrong? Like, you exploded a child in the street, first of all. So, like, we're not looking good. Like, how is that really and you think you're just gonna walk away from that? I mean, we did. Yeah, you totally did. I didn't want to deal with it. I think that's another good point to bring up as a DM. You need to choose your battles. Yeah. What is the hill that you want to die on?

And mine was not exploding newspaper boys in the street. Mine was locking you in a dungeon until you figured out my very basic. I remember that puzzle, and I'm gonna be completely honest. I hated every second of it. Yeah, that's why I stopped doing like puzzles and stuff. Air quotes puzzles. But I mean, it was kind of a puzzle. I had watched like a lot of Final Fantasy I and two, I think, and they have like different elemental crystal stuff. So I was like thinking of that when I made that up.

No, I totally loved it when you first introduced it. I was like, oh [expletive], we could do a puzzle. I'm like, man, I'm pumped. It had like a kind of a fifth element feel to it. But then about the 30-minute mark into the puzzle, I am not pumped anymore. And I'm like, someone needs to figure this out. Yeah, I totally leaned on my character. I'm like, my character is an idiot. Jackie Dubois doesn't know [expletive] about this stuff. You guys figure it out, roll something for it, do something. Yeah. And it seems like everybody at the table just gave up at that point.

Yeah, no one was super happy with that one, and I wasn't super happy with that one. And I learned you really gotta pay attention to your players and know who you're playing with. That's why it was just, you know, murder hobos from then on. Right.

And it's gotta be disheartening too, because you already know the answer and everything. You're like, man, this is a super simple puzzle. Like, just figure it out, guys.

Yeah, I mean, I don't when I DM, I give basically no instructions. It's just like, okay, you do the thing, here is the outcome. What do you want to do next? Right. Essentially just like a uh like one of the old school adventure games where you just type in the things that you want to do.

So was that quirk or something? Was that quirk? Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't quite remember. Yeah. But um yeah. One of my one of my bad spots when it comes to DMing is like I don't really give any like leads of what to do. Right. Because I want the players to just do everything for me.

And I think that it would Have worked better with more experienced players, so I think you as a DM need to know where your players are at. Like, if we were playing that today, then I would play it completely different because I would then be asking you, like, what do I see around me? Like, give me express details. Like, I'm looking in this corner of the room, what do I see? I am looking in this corner of the room, what do I see? Because you're definitely playing it more like a almost like a god DM style, where I am not gonna walk you through this, you know.

Like, I there's not gonna be a voice in your head telling you, okay, you need to stand on this pillar and scrape some foot dirt off into it.

Yeah.

But for some reason we accidentally did it, and then we thought we were onto something, and then we were [expletive] lost. But now as a player, I can see the things that I could have done to help ease the situation. So as a DM, I think you definitely need to look at your audience. For those of you who care that are listening right now, look at your group of players, don't throw anything at them that's too crazy. Like they're just learning their character, they're learning the mechanics of the game. Some of them don't even know the rules of prone yet.

Yeah. Like, don't throw a big puzzle at them yet. Like, throw something small at them, gauge how they do, see if anyone enjoyed it, and then decide where to go from there. Exactly.

So, what would you say is one of your most favorite moments of being a DM? Like that moment where you're like, man, I [expletive] crushed it.

Like I'm doing good. Like I did well, or I laughed because someone fell exactly into the trap that I wanted.

Let's do both. We got time, let's [expletive] do both.

Uh well, the one that like came to mind immediately was when we when Nate and I co-DM'd Halloween DD. Oh, I missed that one. I'm upset I missed that one. And we were making items and the flying noose came up. I was watching a lot of and playing a lot of Binding of Isaac at the time, and that's one of the items in there to gain flying.

Okay.

And it was just too good. And can I say names? Am I allowed to say names? Say names. Okay. So Phil. Phil the power gamer. Yeah, we know who you are. Phil, I got a story about you next, Phil. Uh, he he likes to do a lot of stuff, and this was going to be like a short little campaign. I think we were just planning of it or planning on it to be like about two hours so we could like talk and hang out still because we have we weren't really doing a whole lot at the time. Um, so we were like limiting what people could do. So like flying was a no-no, but kinda knew Phil was gonna want to do that. Yeah.

So the flying noose came in, and it just worked out so well that the first check, because it was you have to put it on, say the magic word to get it to go, and then it would take you up to the thing, but you couldn't like hold on to it in order to it was choking you the whole way, yeah. So it was like a constitution check every single time, and he was playing a fighter, so it was like, uh, this might not like work out super well, but the first check he failed and passed out immediately, and it was just like, uh, that's exactly what I wanted to have, right? Like sweet justice, just gets five feet off the ground and passes out and collapses.

Now, for for mine, this the Phil story for you folks at home, it was the same steampunk campaign, and Phil has a problem with wanting every single magical item that there is. No matter who acquires it first, he's gonna get it one way or another. So I had this big airship that I planned to just give to the party to help them along their adventure, but I made it so the airship itself was like hexed kind of. And of course, who was the first one to the captain's wheel? It was Phil. He put one hand on there and all of a sudden his life force started draining from him. Oh my god, I let go. And then now he's scared because he lost a couple HP from that. He was like, Oh, not my problem.

But then our other player came up. I know he doesn't like us using his name, so we won't do his it. But he came up and he's like, I put both hands on the wheel. Yep. And life force in, life force back out, and he was fine. So that's like as a DM, there's always ways to work around these troubled players.

To subtly screw exactly one person because you know exactly what they're gonna do. Yes, and get that sweet, sweet justice. Which also reminds me of the time I did almost the exact same thing, also to Phil. Where he put on a ring that was meant to be like for a portal, and it tried to open an arm in his or an open a portal in his arm, so they had to cut his arm off.

Yes. I feel like we could almost do a whole episode where we [expletive] on Phil. Phil, if you watch this, we're sorry, man, and I miss you. But come on, we all saw you rolling the dice and then saying it was a 20 and it was not a 20, it was a seven, Phil, and you said not 20 and you lied about it, and I'm too passive aggressive to say anything about it, so I just be like, mm-mm. But I wouldn't really say anything, and it gets me worked out.

Nothing personal, of course.

Nothing I still like you. You're my friend.

But come on.

So what do you think, Chris? Like, do you have anything you want to ask me about DMing or anything like that? What do you think?

Hmm. Well, since I think we both have very different uh styles when it comes to making a campaign because steampunk was all you pretty much made that all yourself, correct? Yep. Um how do you go about making a story like that? Like, do you do it like from top down, like doing like the big strokes of how the world is going to be and stuff like that, and work your way down? Do you just have like an idea of something that you want to do or like a cool setting and you just work out from there? Like, what's what do you do for that?

Okay, so the first thing I do is I have the setting, what we want to do. I love the steampunk world, so that's easier for me to like fill in the gaps for everything. But as far as what we're gonna do in the campaign, I just set points. I'm like, I want them to do this, and then I skip a bunch of lines in my notebook, and then I want them to do this, and then I skip a bunch more lines and do this. And then after that, I go back in and I fill in maybe a couple key characters that you might talk to, just some random names, and then what could possibly happen?

And then after all that's said and done, I do that at each section, and like these points we need to hit if we want to finish the campaign. And then everything else from there on out is completely made up and on the fly. So it's it's definitely a mix where I do put a lot of work into the story itself, and I like to do theatrics when we play in person. Like I'm pretty sure I dressed up for the steampunk campaign campaign. Uh, I actually had legitimate era clothing. Thank you, Megan, in OddShop Vintage Clothing. Shout out to you. Buy her stuff, it also makes me more money. Uh, but yeah, I had era appropriate clothes and I like to present the total package.

Like even when we had our Cthulhu uh role play for one in here with Nate, like I made that box and I spent time. Like I actually I wanted to give him the box, you know, like actually have something in his hands to help make it like more tangible for everybody. Yep. But as far as just setting up the campaign, like I just want you to hit those points, and then like that's the story for the most part, and everything else like a side quest.

Yeah. And then just kind of roll with the punches.

Yeah.

That's kind of when I'm thinking about campaigns. That's kind of how I do it too. It's kind of I just get the broad strokes out of the way, just like this is what the end point is going to be, and then that's about as much work as I do. Right. Everything else, like getting to that point, like I'll figure it out. Like just get where everyone's at. Just get there.

Yeah.

Like uh, you were there for the run, right?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. That was just like I was literally making it up as I went. Like, I just figured, like, there's dinosaurs. There's probably like a pit where they have like scare your dinosaurs and they like can run criminals through there.

I like that. But that was when I was playing in the sand because uh that was when I was in my weird transition phase of what character I want to play. Yeah. And I'm like, you know what? I'm tired of Jackie Duboys and his bears because running pets is hard business in a campaign. So I'm just gonna play in the sand. And the crowd loved it, I remember. Yeah. No, that everyone was really into it. But that was like one of those memories, you know, that you have in a campaign. Is there any uh side note from DMing?

Are there any memories that you do where you played Dungeons and Dragons and like when you look back on it, like you picture it in your head that it feels like a real memory, like that really happened?

Uh yeah, actually. Um when I was in college when I played with a different group of friends, we were this was my first experience playing DD, was playing a druid in 3-5, so it was basically nothing like a five druid at all. Right. I kept pets because that was one of the subclasses, and I had a bunch of dinosaurs, and I remember that was always like a very important part of it. Um but there was one one of our friends came in and he wanted to like just be part of like one of the sessions, and the DM didn't want just someone random sitting there, so they like made him make a character. So I think he was like an umple bee or something like that. I don't even know what that is.

It's like a weird Yeti thing that's just like covered in hair, and just everyone latched on to him and wanted to like chase him and shave him for his hair, and he just kept like static shocking everyone that like got close. I just like very vividly remember that like the gnome that rode his pet dog into battle, and it was just like I have a very vivid memory of like them running around in a circle chasing after one another, but it's like it feels real, like it really happened. Like, I very much so remember that more so than sitting in the room playing. What about you? Do you have any?

Oh, yeah. The the last one I was actually DMing for this one, and it was the the last one we did as a group, it was the spell jammer. Are you familiar with that? So it's like DD in space. Oh, so it's an old uh addition to DD. So I had to kind of like alter it a little bit to fit 5e. And they landed on a planet that was filled with candy people, and I loved it. So, like, I don't know why I was in like that mood. Like, I forget what I watched. That was like the Melanie Martinez Mad Hatter music video.

So I had like in my head that there were gonna be these little candy people, and I just picture it clear as day that they started out by helping these candy people, which is fine, and then they found a family of carrots. Uh-huh. And that's all sentient creatures, you know. Yeah. So they're deciding to help the carrots. And somebody casts, was it enlarge, Nate? Enlarge on the dad carrot. And now all of a sudden, the dad carrot's like, I'm huge. I can kill these candy monsters. But how long does enlarge last? Two minutes, one minute, one or two minutes, and it was not enough time. So the poor mother carrot and baby, her, she's holding a little baby carrot, little baby carrot with little face. Yeah.

And then they can hear the screams as the dad carrot is shrinking back down and the candy monsters get him. And for some reason, I just picture that in my brain, like it really happened.

And then, like, we gotta get out of here, you know. And the little the mom carrots carrying the baby. It's always kids in our campaign, man. It's always kids, but she's carrying the little baby carrot to safety.

And there was one point, you know, it's like, you know what? It can't end like this. Like, the baby carrot's gotta go down so they can get back on the ship, and then I made them roll a check for to hold on to the baby carrot, and the baby carrot like falls off. But somehow somebody did a deck save right at the last end and caught the baby carrot back. So lame. But I know I wanted to kill that baby carrot. But for some reason, that just sticks in my head. Like it was a movie, and it was the most rewarding thing as a DM.

Like, I laid this stuff out all off the top of my head, and it was played so well by my players that now is now a memory that I'm gonna have forever, like the enjoyment memory of the time that dad carrot got killed.

I mean, as a D like the sugar [expletive] thing, and like taking him to like that room in the bar and just like overnight just all the [expletive] that happened. It's like I remember all of that so vividly.

Oh, yeah.

When you had him just standing in the corner being a real creep. You were the one that told him to stand there, and that's all you said.

Oh man, you took it so literally, it was awesome. I loved it.

Took it literally as just like, well, he can do other stuff while he's standing in the corner. So he like breaks the window, but no one notices it. And then like he pissed himself in the corner.

Yeah, I remember that.

And I think one of the patrons that got knocked out, like someone moved him underneath all the piss that was dropping in each round.

As like a towel, kind of huge.

And um then like you guys losing all your stuff because like in the middle of the night he's just taking the like wet robes that he had and like grabbing your stuff and slowly pulling it towards him so he can throw it all out the window.

Oh man, that was so fun. But like he's like, like we were saying, like I just picture that in my head, like it really happened. Yeah, you know, like that's oh man. I love it when DD comes together like that, and when a DM works with the group perfectly, I think that's what you want to aim for. Yeah. Nat one presents fans when you're DMing to make these memories like this, because nothing's better as far as playing DD and makes you more passionate about the the tabletop game.

Yeah, you know. I mean, the whole process needs to be collaborative, like you can have all the story like figured out, but you need to take a lot of input from your players and like do what they're going to enjoy and like take that and work it into the story and give it back to them, and it just it makes it so much more fun. Right, to to make it their own.

Yeah, that they're not just uh a character in a video game. Yep, you know, because that feels like a video game, like you want it to feel like a hybrid of like a turn the page novel, or like you're just you're deciding what's going on and it's your story.

You're not on rails at all, like you're in a completely open area and you can do whatever you want. You just gotta roll for it. Right.

As much as Nate loves trains, not everything can be on rails. I know, I know, I'm sorry. So, what else we got going on, Chris? What what else are we thinking for some serious do's and don'ts for DMing for our audience?

So, one of the things that I've like taken to heart and has come out as like some of the more enjoyable things that I've done when DMing is don't be afraid to just wholesale rip things off that you like. Everyone's there is a nerd. Like, if you like something, just figure out how to work it in. And I think it always makes it better. Like how the whole sugar [expletive] thing started. I was watching somebody play Dark Souls 3, and they were playing the last boss of the DLC, and they have a whip that they use. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they flagellate themselves. I think I was also playing Darkest Dungeon at the time, and that's like a big thing for one of the characters.

But like incorporating that into the game and just like taking inspiration from that and like making up a magical item on the spot, and then doing that can just be fun. It it's an interesting thing. Like there was nothing like the item that I made in the book, but it fit very thematically with what you guys were doing. It was interesting. I already had kind of a blueprint to like look at and go off of. Right.

I like the idea of that homebrew weapon because it's not just something that's super overpowered, like it did have nice perks, but it also took a little bit of something away, and I think that made is what made it balance.

Yeah, and I made that up on the spot. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah, I think it like worked out really well. I think the only other magical item that I made up in that campaign was Phil's helmet, which was like altering like a dice roll before you roll the dice, which was interesting. Because he it was like scary looking, right? Like a lion's mouth or something. I think it was a wolf. Oh, okay. I think he was playing a witcher. Oh, yeah, that's right, that's right. So I think it was a wolf that had like a gem in its eye, and it's like before you roll, you can add plus two to your dice roll.

So if you only curt on a 20, you roll an 18, but you decided to use it before you rolled, right? It would be a 20 and it would count as a crit.

Oh, okay, okay.

So trying to figure out how to like or inject something that's not like really covered in like magical items. Magical items are always very contained in the game. So I wanted something that kind of stepped out of it, which I think would be interesting, and then I never went back to it at all.

Yeah, I think that that worked as well, you know. But I think that's something important when you're DMing, you're gonna eventually, not for a first timer, you're gonna want to stick to the rules basically. Yeah, but once you get more comfortable, you're gonna want to start introducing more of your own homebrew stuff into the game. But balance is still super important to the game, especially if you give one person something that you made and then somebody else just gets a bag of holding. Yeah. Like there's gonna be some resentment there.

For sure. You know, speaking about magical items, how do you feel about magical items in general? Like, not just homebrew ones, like ones out of the uh books as well.

Um, I think it just depends. Like, I definitely love to give the players upfront, like, okay, you can start with the magical item, especially if we're starting at high level. Who knows what your backstory entailed? Like, I'm sure you were on some sort of a venture and you acquired at least one magical item, you know, but like make it reasonable. Yep. But once the players start demanding magical items, that's when I get pissed off. Yeah, like I already gave you something, and I am sure enough to like leave one or two magical items in a chest that I know is gonna fit one of you [expletive] playing the game right now. It's gonna go well with your character. And do you ever use it? No, you never use it.

You throw it in the bag because you're like, oh sweet, a magical item, and you just throw it in the bag and you never use it, and that hurts my feelings. Like on the spell jammer, when I gave you guys the goop stuff that you've coat your weapon in the space goop, it gives you a plus one or a plus two to your weapon for the duration. I thought that was great. You know, worked thematically, great for it. Nobody used it, they left it in the bag, even though they badgered some [expletive] salesman guy who had no magic items and somehow still got magic items from him. And God man, that still pisses me off. But what were we going on about? I lost track.

I just asked about magical items and yeah, apparently it pisses me off.

Apparently. Uh, how do you feel about people using magical items? Not necessarily in like the way that they're supposed to be used. Like, I love it. Yeah.

Like if you're like thinking outside the box on something and I didn't think of it first, let's see where this is gonna play out.

Yeah, yeah. Because the thing that comes to mind is always like that expanding fortress thing, forcing someone to eat that and then saying a magic word. It's always like, do you let that happen? Do you let that work? Like, how do how do you feel about stuff like that?

I think you just gotta let it go with the flow because you know what that item does. It's your item. You attuned to it, you sat there and looked at it. Your character sat there and looked at it for who knows how many hours. You know, exactly eight. Eight attuning to this item. You sat there and looked at this for eight hours in game, and you know what it can do. And if you gave it to someone to swallow, or if somebody accidentally swallows it, you say that magic word, that person's exploding. I'm sorry. It's just gonna you're probably gonna get hurt too if you're standing in the the radius of it.

Yeah, you know, like I think you can lend them enough rope, but if your players are gonna hang themselves with it, you let them hang it because sometimes that's just as fun.

Oh yeah, for sure. That's I definitely feel the exact same way about it. Like, if you can think of some creative thing, even if it's really [expletive] up, I'm a hundred percent there for it. Oh yeah, I'm behind it.

Like, let's see where this story's going.

It's just it always makes it more interesting. Like, don't limit it to like depending on the group. Like, if you're playing with like a little kid, probably don't get real gory and explicit with what you're doing. Right. But like if you're playing with a bunch of friends and everyone's okay with it, like no need to hold yourself back. Just really, really go for it. Oh, yeah.

And I think uh Nate was the worst culprit out of all of us because he would get a magical idol and then he would do something, and I don't know what was going on in his head. If he just thought the story was gonna end there or somebody else was gonna take over, do something else, he'd usually get himself into some trouble. And that's at that point, I would sit back and be like, Well, what's gonna happen now? Yeah you know, and then we would just spend who knows how long trying to figure out the trouble that he got into. How's he gonna get out? Yeah, and sometimes that was more enjoyable than me actually playing my character. I'm like, man, I'm like getting my chips and [expletive].

I'm like, oh, let's see what's gonna happen. But I think that's it's just uh you need to find out what works for your table as a DM. Yeah. And if like honestly, you're gonna have like if you have a big group of players, you're gonna have a favorite out there. Like it doesn't matter who. It's gonna be your best friend, or maybe it's the person who role plays the best, or you like their character the best and their playstyle, and and that's fine to have. Like, let them have a little bit of it, you know, and then I think that makes for a better overall story that hopefully the other players will step up, especially when it comes to role-playing in our group.

Yeah, there's a couple of us that kind of strong arm the whole role-playing idea, and then everyone else gets kind of like left behind. But I think like as I'm role-playing super strong, I want other people to jump in and like make this a bigger experience for everybody.

That's why you and Nate work really well together, right? Like, I always kind of relied on you guys when I was DMing because you guys were just like, I could be having a conversation over here, but the story is still progressing with you two, and you would always like rope someone else in, and like stuff would still be going on there, so I can handle with whatever stupid situation is going on. Yeah, probably, or haggling with some merchant somewhere just doing some not important thing. Right. But being able to like for me as a DM, because I think our group got up to like 10 people at one point, and this is huge. Is literally my first time DMing.

So it was just it's tough to manage that many people and be able to like keep notes of what's going on. So having people that were really into RPing helped a lot because it was just you guys go have your conversation. I'll ask for a summary afterwards of what's going on or what you've decided that you're gonna do. Great. That like takes out half the group and I can focus on the other half. Right.

It makes it easier to break up. So if you're a new DM, definitely keep your group small because once you get into it, starting out is fine, but once you get into people wanting to split paths, go their separate ways, or battle, battle is the biggest bog when you have 10 players. And that's no fault to the DM. There's nothing you can do about it. You have to play it by the rules and you have to do it the right way. And when you have 10 people and you know seven of those ten don't have [expletive] prepared, even though they're magic casters, they're like, Well, I'm gonna cast this. Okay, what's it do? Oh, yeah. You want to know what it you don't just know being a DM what that does?

Because I just saw it on my page, I'm just gonna say it. Like that is irritating for everybody.

Yeah, and that's one of the things like I've spent time and I've read through cover to cover both the DM guide and the player's handbook more than once. Just for like I like having that knowledge and being able to like just pull from that just to expediate things. Right. Like I remember doing battle was always like once battle started, I was not listening to anything else that was happening at the table. It was setting up the turn order so everyone can visually see it. And then just like I had my whiteboard, I had my calculator, I had the monster stats and everything, and it was asking someone what they were doing while I was calculating what just happened, and it was a lot of multitasking. Oh, yeah.

And battle battle was always tough, and keeping it like moving along was even tougher because especially with bigger groups, because then like side conversations happen, and it's hard to break people from that, so it was always just like yelling at people. Again, kind of kind of being an [expletive], but it's like we're doing this now, we gotta get through this, and then like once it's not your turn, you can talk as much as you want. But when it's your turn, be ready with your [expletive]. Right? Like, it's not that hard.

Like, you have nine other people ahead of you. What did you have planned? Yeah, oh [expletive], it's my turn. Yeah, like yeah, man, it's your turn. You've known about this eight turns ago.

Yeah, that's why that's why I like playing warlocks.

Oh, yeah.

What are you gonna do? It's gonna be ultra blast. I already rolled it. Here is what's happening. Yeah, deal with it. Done.

But I did like uh your warlock where like you were doing creepy stuff in the basement. So, like, even though it's a simple combat class, you can still bring your own RP flavor to it. I remember just thinking, I'm like, man, what the [expletive] is Chris doing in that basement? You know, and that became my point of the story. I didn't even know what [expletive] story we're playing anymore. I'm just like, what is he doing in that basement?

Yep, it was just anytime we killed someone, it would be shove all of the parts into a bag of holding and then they would go into the basement. I think I eventually made a flesh column down there, and I think I had like a soul or like one of those mirrors that like traps your soul or something as like security. And I remember like Rogue was the first class that I like ever played and like really enjoyed. Um but warlock I think is more helpful for me. I think I've more like my natural being is more warlock-y, right, but I still like to steal things, so I always like get the companion, and this time I like went with an imp because they can turn invisible. Oh, and like what they're holding turns invisible.

So I got him a little bag of holding so I could steal stuff and just put it in his bag and he can [expletive] off with it. It was it was great.

I think it definitely should have been more of like an investigation, like what's going on with that character. Like, so if you as a DM and a character's doing something kind of weird or like interesting at least, like follow up with it every so often, or like help him to make it more interesting. Because seriously, I was like, I don't even know what the [expletive]'s going on right now. All I care about is why is he taking body parts to that basement? And anytime I got close, he'd be like, nope, locked, you don't want to deal with that. I'm like, oh [expletive]. There's gotta be a way I can sneak in there, but look at me, I'm a [expletive] druid. I can't sneak into [expletive], you know?

And there's a bear behind me, they're like and I'm like, God, shut the [expletive] up, you're not sneaky at all.

Um, how are we doing on time? No. So-so? So-so? Oh, okay. Oh, okay, we're doing good.

Um well, is there anything, Chris, since you're like first of all, let me get this. Did you enjoy your time here on that one presents?

Yeah.

You had a good time?

Yeah.

Okay, good. Because I felt like this went pretty good today.

Yeah.

It went a lot faster than I was expecting. Right now, time just flies by when you're having fun talking [expletive]. Yeah. Yeah, talking about cheap. Um not personal. No, you're we're still friends. Um, is there anything that you will like just want to throw out? Like, here's a list of points for a new DM. Like, these are the things I wish you would at least think about before you start your own DD adventure.

I would say sit down and really think about what you want to do. Like, everyone's there to have fun, but how do you want to do that? Like, I'm not a big RP person, I'm really bad at that. So, like, I don't do a lot with that, but I want to have interesting stuff happen, so I like make sure there's a ton of things for people to do. Right. But that's just how I do it. Someone who's like really into RPing, you can create like a bunch of different characters and like come with that. So think about your campaign, what you want to do with it, and just be ready to like work with your players to make something interesting. I think that's the biggest thing is be prepared and be prepared to have fun.

Yeah.

And to want to pull your hair out. Every time. Oh, yeah. If you DM long enough, you'll start hating the people you play with, and then you'll find another group, and then you'll hate those people more, and then go back to your other group. Personal experience? Guarantee it. Guarantee. So that's gonna do it for this episode of Nat One Presents. Dungeon Masters do's and don'ts. Uh, be sure to rate our podcast. Uh, we're on all of the podcast stuff. Just type in Nat One Presents, you'll find us, listen to us, give us a rating, give us a review, subscribe, join our Patreon, give us a dollar. It's just a dollar. Go ahead. Just a dollar. I knew you would do it. It's a good feeling to say it, asking people for just a dollar.

It's just a dollar. It's a hundred pennies. Yeah, that's not even that many pennies. No, you could find actually I don't know if people have pennies. It's just a dollar. Uh, we have all the socials, so check out all the socials. Uh Nate does all that, even though he's not on the mic or on camera right now, but he's still on social, so talk to him. He'll talk to you, I promise. Probably. And just one last plug. Uh, thank you to all of our patrons out there for realizing that it's just a dollar. And if you too want to join our Patreon, God dang, it's just a dollar, man. Sign up one dollar. All right. Thanks for being here, Chris. Yeah. Thanks for having me. All right. See you guys later. Good night. Later.